The hardest thing for me in Christian doctrine

[Liberal]

I grew up with a liberal Christian background in an Anglican Church. I went to Sunday school and was educated at Anglican and Roman Catholic schools where I received religious education. I was never taught about hell in either Sunday school or in the religious education from my schools. I then assumed that everyone would go to heaven or that only evil people like murderers and Adolf Hitler would go to hell. Then I never worried about hell.

When I was aged 16 I got involved in an evangelical Christian group which taught that unless you're saved, you are classed as a non-Christian and will go to hell when you die. I was shocked. I was hearing 'the things they never told you at school or in Sunday school about Christianity'. Because I didn't want to go to hell, I promptly, under the instruction of a Christian, 'asked Jesus into my life' to be saved. I was told it was supposed to be a joyful thing to become a Christian in this way. I felt I was forced to become a Christian and did not feel joy. At aged 16 I felt it was an intrusion in my life - I was more concerned about my family, my friends and studying for my school exams and felt I was too young at age 16 for serious religion. I felt more comfortable with the more gentle Christianity at the Anglican Church. As very few people in our world have actually been saved, this implies that the vast majority of people will end up in hell - how can a loving God allow this? This implies that my family and most of my friends are going to hell if they're not saved. I'm not happy about being able to go to heaven when my love ones are going to hell.

Some Christians take the belief of hell in their stride and are thick-skinned about accepting it whereas I'll feel very uneasy about it. Does that make me more sensitive? Why do some Christians accept the hell issue easily and become very happy and confident with their faith? I've always struggled with my faith. I describe myself as a Doubting Thomas because I question everything in the Christian faith and feel reluctant to accept anything which doesn't make sense to me - such as the concept of heaven and hell. I have doubts and I've even questioned whether God exists - feeling almost agnostic

The atheist tells me, "Why do you have to believe all that stuff? There is no God and when you die, you cease to exist." I couldn't be an atheist. I have some faith and I'd be lost without my God to worship and turn to for guidance. I do have a personal relationship with God and accept that Jesus died for me. The orthodox Christian is saying "If you don't believe, you go to hell" and the atheist says "If I were you I wouldn't believe in that stuff" and I feel like piggy in the middle. I'm British. A high percentage of British people are atheist or agnostic but I couldn't live without my God and my faith.

I would like to hear from others on this discussion forum who have struggled (1) with the hell issue, and (2) in their faith.

[Bondservant]

I grew up with a liberal Christian background .... went to Sunday school and was educated at Anglican and Roman Catholic schools where I received religious education. I was never taught about hell in either Sunday school or in the religious education from my schools......

Many times what we hear and understand as children are interpreted much differently as adults. You may have never "clicked" with this when (or if) it was taught. My husband was raised Catholic, and he tells me of being taught about hell. Your church may have focused on other teachings that you remember better

When I was aged 16 I got involved in an evangelical Christian group which taught that unless you're saved, you are classed as a non-Christian and will go to hell when you die.

I sometimes think that very well meaning pastors and church members sometimes miss the boat. Yes, you do need to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He came to die for your sins, and to be raised again in accordance with scriptures. But, I don't think "praying the prayer" is what saves you. My son right now (he is 9) has no idea there is anything else besides Jesus. He hasn't prayed the prayer, and neither has my step-son (almost 15). These boys have more faith in their little pinky than most people I know. They know without a doubt who Jesus is and why He came. It's because that is all we have ever taught them.

I felt more comfortable with the more gentle Christianity at the Anglican Church. As very few people in our world have actually been saved, this implies that the vast majority of people will end up in hell - how can a loving God allow this? This implies that my family and most of my friends are going to hell if they're not saved. I'm not happy about being able to go to heaven when my love ones are going to hell.

Talk to your family about your faith. You may find that they are saved, and if not, you can bring them to that knowledge of Christ. That should be our goal with everyone we know. When I was "saved", I was going to a Baptist church, I know attend the Methodist. The styles are much different. My first church, the pastor was very knowledgeable about the Hebrew and Greek traditions and language. He was an excellent preacher, who hated Catholics with a passion. We made the decision to move because of this. The Methodist church is much more gentle in approach and focus mainly on living and receiving the love of Christ (as opposed to "walking the aisle to get saved"). There are times I miss getting my toes stepped on, but this is causing me to dig deeper into scripture for myself.

Some Christians take the belief of hell in their stride and are thick-skinned about accepting it whereas I'll feel very uneasy about it. Does that make me more sensitive? Why do some Christians accept the hell issue easily and become very happy and confident with their faith? I've always struggled with my faith. I describe myself as a Doubting Thomas because I question everything in the Christian faith and feel reluctant to accept anything which doesn't make sense to me - such as the concept of heaven and hell. I have doubts and I've even questioned whether God exists - feeling almost agnostic

If you believe, you are saved. Nothing else saves you, and God knows your heart. At this point in time, it appears you are exploring what it means to be a Christian for you. That is good. I think a lot of us have questioned whether God exists, or if He is really like the God of the Bible. I still see where I need to strengthen my faith in Him, I see the things I hold onto just because I don't fully trust God to handle them the way I want them handled. Struggling with these issues is not a sin. Go to God's word, seek and you shall find. Yes, there is a hell. You seem to have a heart burdened for lost people. God isn't bad for making hell, He is good because He allows us to make that choice. He could MAKE us believe in Him. Yet He allows us to choose Him. The key is that God knows ALL, every single thing, and He sees the bigger picture even when we can't.

I used to be an atheist. I read the Bible and at the age of 23 came to believe that there was a God and that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die in my place. He took on all I did wrong, so that I could be cleansed and made Holy before the Lord. I am a princess, Child of the King. You are too. Seek the face and glory of your Creator, keep on your knees in prayer. Allow God to work in you, and make His Truth known to you. Go to God-ly men and women to ask questions. The most important thing is to learn His word. Prayerfully ask Him to reveal Himself to you. God is faithful and He will not leave you or forsake you, and He won't make you figure it all out on your own. He is right there with you.

Peace to you, sister. You will find the answers you need. Don't ever let the devil steal your joy in Christ. Knowing God and growing in Him is a process, not an overnight wonder. It is a lifetime of seeking Him and learning about Him.

[ozzie]

I can relate to you - I have struggled in many issues including hell & faith.
Many people attend church without questioning anything they hear. But God's Word says "He desires all to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the Truth". 1 Timothy 2:4

If you believe anyone, believe Him. Go to His Word, and search for Him, seek, study, pray, believe that He wants to be found by you - because He does.
I may be wrong, but you may just be trying to accept information about Him....... Your faith is in Him - the living, real, true, eternal person of Jesus Christ. Search for Him and don't stop seeking until you've found Him.
You may find this sermon helpful:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.a ... 2908229120

[pebbles]

Dear Liberal,

My faith background is very varied I was raised a beautiful mix of Anglican and Jehovah's Witness. Didn't really go to church much when I was younger. but I went to a school that was essentially Anglican we had worship 3 times a week and religious instruction class once a week. I became baptized as an adult in the Anglican church.

What I have personally found is that often the Anglican church is lacking in scriptural foundation. The church often does not delve into the deep spiritual issues.However, having grown up on the Jehovah's Witness children's of book of Bible stories, and also attending bible study I learned about the importance of reading and studying the bible. Last year I considered going to a non-Anglican church but then we got a great new priest who is just amazing in terms of enlightening you on scriptural issues with depth. In general for me as long as it is Christian truthful teaching about Jesus and God, I am not bothered by the denomination.

In my late teens I had some close friends who were Baptists and I had that same struggle you do when they told me the if you are not saved, everyone else is going to hell. As a result for the longest time I would say I believed in God but I disliked using the "official term" Christian because it held that sort of " I'm better than you, I am not going to hell" connection for me.

Have also felt that pray the prayer of salvation pressure, and prayed it. A little anecdote I remember people saying oh when you read the bible you feel happy. At thirteen decided I would read the entire bible. Started in Genesis and half way through Genesis thought I would start from the back of the bible and go forward. Well Revelation scared the living daylights out of me and did not make me happy.

I hadn't really thought about it but I guess I don't dwell on the hell issue. I believe in it , because it is written in the bible and now I believe 100% of the bible. I may not like everything in the bible but I believe it and I think we need to avoid picking and choosing what we want to believe in the bible.

I don't take the approach that I have to pound the scripture belief into others. I do pray for my family members. I pray that they will draw closer to God and be in heaven. For me if I were to worry about who is going to heaven and hell on a daily basis it would stress me out. I believe God is in control, he may use me or someone else to assist family members or myself draw closer to Him. I don't think I should worry too much about the timetable of their salvation. I figure God can handle it.

Keep reading the bible, and find yourself a church that is spiritually uplifting and scripturally sound. Don't get sucked into a congregation where you are just going through the motions and not being fed on God's word.

Last thing Christianity is a journey, so we are continuously growing and along that journey there are growing pains. There will always be struggles but from each struggle in your faith you learn something new and emerge a little stronger.
Take care
Pebbles

[windward]

Dear SisterLIberal -

I do understand where you're coming from. May I suggest something?
Since you're British, you might really enjoy C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity.
Lewis, as you may or may not know, was a dean at Oxford and a self-proclaimed atheist until he had a conversion expereince. His book lays out step by step the argument for Christianity - from the existence of God to the need for a savior and beyond, all in a very logical and lucid fashion, and all in a very thin book. He will answer a lot of questions for you and give you a building block for the faith that you have now.

I have been where you are - I have dear observant, devout Jewish friends - what about them? What about my Jehovah Witness brother who loves God and works diligently for Him but is mistaken in his doctrine. Or my dear Mormon friend? That used to really, really bother me - what's going to happen to them? Are they going to hell? But they love God! As I have grown in my relationship with God, I have also grown to trust Him more. I want my friends and relatives to have that same relationship with the Lord that I do, but I have found that as I have worked on growing in the Lord and having Him work His way in me, that somehow He brings opportunities for me to share my faith in a well-reasoned, sensitive way. I pray for my friends and family and I ask the Lord to use me to share Him with my loved ones in a way that they will listen and at a time when they will listen, when their heart has been softened by the Holy Spirit - not me just going off half-cocked and spouting off something condemning. Remember, the Lord loves everyone, and it is His will that no one be lost but all be saved. He gives us a choice. Just keep in prayer about this. You're just at the beginning of your journey. God bless you! In love, Win.

[Liberal]

Thank you for your posts and your encouragement. I know I'm not the perfect Christian. As well as teaching from the Bible, the Christian faith is about what it is - faith - each individual's personal faith - my personal faith - to talk to God about everything and to trust him. To have faith and not to get bogged down with the theology or differences in opinion as to what we're supposed to believe. Not to let the hell thing, the devil thing or people's views stop me from having faith.

The way I've coped with hell is to deny that it exists or to not think too much about it. This seems to be what quite a few British Christians do. The traditional hell doctrine seems to have been relaxed by eg Anglicians, Methodists and even some Roman Catholics in Britain.

I've been speaking to some Atheists who appear thick-skinned and say they're happy to live with the idea of no God and no life after death - I find this very sad as I've always believed there's a God and feel privileged to have grown up with a church background. After hearing the Atheist's view, I could not cope without my God to turn to in need and to worship. I'd feel loss without my God - he's a father figure I could not do without and I like to imagine that he's a kind father who corrects me gently. Atheists make me appreciate God more, and make me feel that I do not want to give up on my God. I could not bear it if there was no God and no afterlife. A Christian friend told me that if an 'Atheist' was about to die, they would probably cry out to God in desperation.

Sorry if my posts sounded very frank. I needed to share it and get it off my chest.

Thank you if you've been praying for me. Today I felt peace - as if I was touched by the Holy Spirit. God bless you all.

[Deborah]

Hi

I know where you are coming from - a lot of different churches teach a lot of different things and it can be very confusing.
The Bible tells us that God placed the truth inside our hearts - that we know when we hear about Jesus that it is the truth. I am not good at explaining WHY I believe just that I do - it's in me. I just KNOW it to be true.
That said, there are a teachings that I personally struggle with* - in these cases I turn to the infallible Word Of God rather than what is coming out of a fallible mans mouth.
Not to disrespect preachers - I love my pastors, and I respect preachers - I sincerely do - but they ARE human, and humans as we all know can get things very wrong.
So I would say to you if you are in some turmoil about a particular issue get your Bible out and have a look at what God says on the issue.

* Something I personally struggle with (and I may get slammed for this) is the sex before marriage thing. I know what the Bible says, and I'm not disregarding it, but I have personally seen so many women who have waited until marriage end up hating sex! And I don't want that for my children! Sex is a gift from God and I see so much shame and guilt attached to it (by fallible humans).
I think that Christians have kind of 'dropped the ball' on sex - we are so bus advising against it "don't do it, don't do it" that we have forgotten that God created it as a gift for married people. Anyway I will shush now because I think I am digging a great big hole for myself!

But please read your Bible and check out what it has to say about the whole heaven and hell thing, before believing what a particular group of people are saying - it'll give you peace!

[hrcworld1]

I've often struggled with this idea, but here's the way that I have come to see it. Feel free to disagree, but here it is anyway.

I do think that there is a hell where truly wicked and evil souls go after death, but desperately try not to think about it. I do think that good people go to heaven. As for Atheists, I'm not so sure.

However, I don't think that Christians are the only ones goign to heaven, otherwise that would leave a lot of people in Hell. The Jews aren't going to hell just because they are a different religion, the Buddhists aren't going to hell because chances are they've never harmed another living being in their life and them going to hell just wouldn't make any sense. Same is true for all other religions.

How does this work? Well, call me crazy, but I think that God has created different heavens for different people. Can we logically argue that the same divine force in Christianity is similar in no way, shape, or form to that of any other religion on earth? Not really. If you sit down adn hold a conversation with a Muslim about their faith, you'll find that many things are similar, just with a few differences. Same with the Jews, the Hidus, and many of the other religions out there. I don't think any religion is saying to go out and destroy the world because it will get you into heaven, only radical extremists who are trying to gain power say that. Mostly they all say be a good person, and you will be saved. They simply have different ideas as to how to be a good person.

So therefore if your family and friends believe in a god, any god, then chances are they believe in a different form of the same god you believe in adn are therefore going to heaven. Again, call me crazy, but God has already shown us that he can take many forms, and I do not think that someone like Jesus, who is God, could simply stand by and watch more than half of the world go to hell simply because they didn't follow the bible. They do follow a holy text, they do have their own gods, adn I think that it is completely acceptable to believe that these gods are all manifestations of the same God, simply shifting form to identify with more people. For instance, in order to save us, God had to appear in teh form of Jesus, our Lord. Perhaps in order to save others he had to appear in a different form, such as Vishnu or Muhammad.

This argument leaves me a bit curious about atheists, namely because they don't believe in a god. I dont want to say that they will go to hell, simply because there could be some very nice people who claim to be atheists. However, as someone else suggested, they could secretly believe in their heart and therefore not go to hell.

Certianly a tricky question, adn this is just my take on it, but definitely one of the harder questions to answer.

And just in case anyone was wondering, I know this sounds like a very liberal post, but I do believe in the bible 100 percent and am actually quite conservative... I guess I'm just liberal with this question...

[Gentletouch]

hrcworld1, nice to meet you. You said:

"And just in case anyone was wondering, I know this sounds like a very liberal post, but I do believe in the bible 100 percent and am actually quite conservative... I guess I'm just liberal with this question... "

I am glad that you believe the Bible as 100% truth. I too believed it so and so I base my faith on what JESUS said in
Ephesians 1:13-14 NIV
"And you also were included in CHRIST when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in HIM with a seal, the promised HOLY SPIRIT, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are GOD's possession- to the praise of HIS glory."

See, without a seal of guarantee that we are GOD's possession included in CHRIST, then we have no redemption or salvation.

Do the devils believe in one true GOD? I would think so. let us see what it says in James 2:19 NIV
"You believe that there is one GOD. Good! Even the demons believe that-- and shudder." (See Matthew 9:29; Mark 5:7)

Satan, devils and demons believe GOD, know the Bible forward and backward, that's the reason why they are able to twist the truth and deceive many. What's the difference between them and CHRIST followers? They did not repent of their sins at the very outset. They did not receive GOD's forgiveness in CHRIST because they do not belong to the human race that included humankind who received the forgiveness of sins through CHRIST dying for all. The gospel is to acknowledge that JESUS died for all, HIS blood is needed to wash away our sins, the gift of salvation is available for all humankind who will receive CHRIST as their LORD and SAVIOR. The gift is free because JESUS already paid the price for the penalty of our sins. Remember... Without CHRIST and HIS blood, we still have the sin from our foreparents that will bring us down to hell without CHRIST. It will be an eternal separation from GOD. Eternal separation from GOD means eternal death which is in hell where the devils and demons will spend their eternity. We are all given a choice where we would like to spend our eternity. There is no place to go that exist between heaven and earth except a fixed huge chasm.. It is either heaven or hell at the end of time. Those who are in hell cannot cross over to heaven because of the fixed chasm between heaven and hell. Luke 16:26 NIV


Gentletouch

[hrcworld1]

But then what if someone has confessed their sins to their own god, believes that their own prophets have died for them or suffered for them, etc? Wouldn't it follow that they too would go to heaven? I understand that they are not Christian, but a vast majority of the world is not Christian and Christianity has never been the religion of the majority of people. I have an aunt who is Muslim who prays to Allah and confesses her sins daily. She is a good person who devoutly believes in her God. I simply do not see how she, being such a good person and believing in a God whom she has confessed to and is doing everything that God says is not going to heaven. I agree that she may well not be going to the Christian version of heaven, rather the Muslim one, but I cannot sit here and logically think that she will go to hell simply because she believes in a different form of the same God. She even believes that Jesus was a prophet and a great one at that, as all Muslims do. No one says the Jews are going to hell, it follows, then, that the Muslims aren't either. All three religions are connected and I believe all three are a variation of one core God. If God can shift to forms between these three religions, I don't see why it is unreasonable to think He could do it with other religions.

And I personally cannot believe that a God who is so forgiving would condemn that many people to hell. It just does not make any sense.

[ohiogirlcm]

Hello ladies! I know this is a topic that is hard to understand, and it appears that there are a lot of different opinions about this issue. We always need to take our opinions to the Word of God and see if they match. Our feelings and emotions, especially as women, can lead us astray sometimes, so we must be careful. I have come to the realization that sometimes I come to things in the Bible or things that God says in his Word that I don't like, or that I may not understand. There are mysteries of the Bible too, and we won't know until we meet our maker face to face what is the truth, but we still have to trust Him and His Word. For example, it teaches us in the Bible to love unloveable people. In my human perspective I want to turn and go the other way from mean, harsh, unloveable people, but those are the ones that it teaches me in the Bible to reach out to and love the most, even my enemies. Matthew 5:46 says, "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?"

I think this post hits to the heart of the gospel and salvation. It sounds to me (forgive me if I am incorrect) that you are afraid of yourself and loved ones from dying and going to hell, and are unclear as to what sends a person to hell and who goes there. Passages in the Bible clearly tell us what sends us to hell, our sins. Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." All humans are born with a sin nature, and if there wasn't sin, then we wouldn't need a saviour from our sins. Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." So the people that the world, and maybe even some of us, call good people are not so in God's eyes. Romans 3:10, "There is none righteous (good,) no, not one." God's standards are so much higher than ours (perfection,) and we can't humanly obtain that. All of us have violated God's laws. If you've ever told a lie, you've violated the law. If you ever hated someone in your heart enough to want them dead, you've committed murder in your heart. Even if you haven't done that, I can confidently say that we all have violated some part of the Ten Commandments, if not all. The Bible says that if you've violated any part of the law, you are guilty of violating it all, and that means guilty of sinning. As to who that saviour is, we can be assured as believers in the Bible to be 100 % truth that Jesus is the only way to salvation from our sins. John 14:6 says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me." This is Jesus talking in his own words, and CLEARLY tells us that there are no other ways into heaven, including other teachings or other gods. Even the Ten Commandments says that we shouldn't have any other gods before the one true living God. You may not like or may not understand some of God's Word, as do I, but you can have confidence and faith knowing that God loves you, sent his only son, Jesus, as a saviour to die for you, He has given you His Word (The Bible,) to help grow you and teach you, He's given you the Holy Spirit (If you're a believer,) to guide you and give you discernment, and He will never leave you nor forsake you!

I strongly encourage people to use scriptures from the Bible to back up what they believe. Otherwise, it can just be an opinion based on our likes and dislikes. This is serious stuff, and we shouldn't take it lightly. May God bless you all as you grow in your knowledge of Him. Love in Christ, Charity
[/list]

[LilMommax5]

All I can say is *wow*! I have gleaned so much information, some many wonderful references to scripture! Thank you!

[ohiogirlcm]

Lil Momma,

I am happy to see your excitement! I love when others are excited about the Lord, His Word, and His truths. It's contageous!!! (In a good way of course.) Have a wonderful day!

In Christian love, Charity

[windward]

The big problem is a person of any faith may repent of their sins and seek forgiveness - but the debt still has to be paid. If I've stolen $10,000 from you, let's say, and I'm truly sorry and I repent of taking your money, in order to make things right with you, I need to ask your forgiveness and pay your money back. And even if I do all that, there's another problem. I've broken the law. No matter what country you live in, there's no society that says "It's okay to steal." So not only have I sinned against you by taking your money, I've sinned against society by breaking one of the rules laid down for people to live together in peace.
And in most societies, even if I pay you back, I'm still going to jail because I broke that law, period.

And that's the problem with religions: You can repent, you can ask for forgiveness, but you're still going to receive punishment because you broke the law. And to answer your question, those of other faiths, no matter how devout, will be judged by the Law and punished accordingly.
Those who have accepted Christ's free offer of escape from that judgment by accepting Him and allowing the punishment he endured to be credited to our account and making us spotless, as if we had never sinned, well, we will be spared. And here's the thing. He died for everybody, your aunt, my Jewish friend, my Buddhist neighbors, everyone. All they have to do is accept the offer.

[Gentletouch]

Amen Winward.

Its truly a six-pack comprehensive explanation how one can be saved.

You go girl!


Gentletouch