The hardest thing for me in Christian doctrine

[windward]

Thank you, Gentletouch, for your kind words, especially coming from such a scholar as yourself.

To all my friends on this board,

I have wrestled with this subject myself. I have a beloved Jewish friend, a brilliant, brilliant man, who tells me he can't accept Christ because he thinks that in order for God to come down to earth as man, He had to change his nature, and it is heresy in the Jewish tradition to believe that God changes His nature.

I have a dear SIL who is married to a Muslim man and can't bear to think of her husband and her late MIL - a very loving and devout woman - as "going to hell."

This is a difficult subject for believers to wrestle with, forget non-believers.
And the argument we hear the most is "Why would a loving God send a good person to Hell."

I'm not the scholar that some on this board are, but I know this.

God is just not good, He's holy. As in perfect. As in sinless, As in him there is no shadow of anything dark or evil or bad. He is pure - as in pure love, pure light, pure mercy - everything He is is unalduterated good.
And He does not tolerate sin, even in His own creatures. Lucifer, the lead worshipper, the most beautiful of all the angels, was cast out because of the sin of pride. The problem with sin is it's polluting, like cigarette smoke when you're enjoying a fine meal outdoors. It dirties and contaminates what it touches - think of dirty snow, or a dirty footprint on a pure white piece of paper. Sin renders good things unable to fulfill the function they were created for. So, God can't tolerate sin and can't allow it in His presence or in Heaven because, to be blunt, He doesn't want the pollution. Heaven isn't heaven with just a little bad thrown in.

And then here we are saying, "But we're good!" But good isn't perfect. Good isn't pure. Good isn't holy. "Good" is good enough for down here. And good is man's term. We're deciding what's good. It's not God's definition. We're saying, hey, God, we think you're being a little unreasonable here. But who else do we do that do? I mean, if you go to a friend's house and they don't allow smoking in their home, do you say, Oh, come on, man. You call yourself a good friend. If you're such a good friend, why can't I smoke in your house? The answer would be, "If
you are my friend, you'll accept my rules for my house. You're welcome to be here, but I can't abide smoke." Right? So why do we not allow God the same license we allow ourselves?

So God is in a situation where He loves us and wants to be able to have us near him, but he can't - because of the "smoke" of our sins.
Big problem. But not for God. He says, Okay. I'll fix that. I'll arrange it so that the punishment you would ordinarily receive for your sins will be paid by Somebody else, and you'll get the credit for it. You just have to believe it and receive it in the person of My Son. And then you can be with Me forever. How does that sound?"

lAnd then being the sorry bunch we are, instead of saying, "Wonderful!" we say, "Ah, man, what kind of God are you? How come we have to do it your way and not our way?" Can anybody else see the ludicrousness of this argument? You wouldn't try that argument with a friend, but yet we'll try it with God.

This is a hard concept in a day and age where I'm okay, you're okay, and everybody does their own thing and truth is relative and who are you to judge, man. I've struggled with it, and I finally came to the conclusion that the best way to deal with it is to pray. I just pray for the person to come to know the Lord, no matter what their persuasion. And we know it happens. We know good Jews convert, Muslims convert, atheists believe, and everyday "good" people come to a point of repentance and ask Jesus into their hearts. Just keep on praying. Love, Win.

[PADIVAN]

Yes win, God isn't just loving, but also holy. He has a holy love for us. Sometimes we try to define God and how he should do things based upon our human understanding of love, goodness, holiness and compassion.
Also, I wonder, perhaps the correct question to ask,
instead of asking, Why does God allow any to go to hel?l shouldn't we ask:
why should God have allowed any of us to go to heaven? Do we deserve it?

Another passage that I reminded of in reference to this is found in Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter through the narrow gate, For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

[ozzie]

hrcworld1

I think to say we believe 100% bible, but then say that the muslim god could be the same God as the creator of the universe but in a different form, is conflicting.

If we study the Bible, we can see that the God described as creating the heavens & earth, Adam, all in creation. This same God says He is the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob/Isreal, the same God says Isreal is the apple of His eye. The same God says Christ is His only begotten Son, the lamb given as a sacrifice. In Him & only Him is salvation for those who believe, Jews & Gentiles. The same God who says the believers are His bride, chosen & set apart, born again into eternal life.

The muslim God as described by Muhummad says the Jews/Isreal is the infidel. The muslim god cannot therefore be the one described above. Islam refutes the belief that God has a son at all. There is much that conflicts. There is no prophesy in the Koran at all. A nice muslim lady (who is called a muslim because her religion is Islam), if she is true to her religion, then she believes that she is a descendent of Ishmael, not Isaac. Her religion she's claiming to be a part of, believes the book of Surah 5:33 "The recompense of those who wage war (refuse to become Muslims, or reject Islam) against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land". This nice lady probably doesn't know her own religion.

It is important to know & understand what our beliefs are based on, they need a firm foundation of Truth. Truth is not really truth if it's subjective. It must be eternal (not subject to change). Truth can not be what its not eg. if white is white it can't also be black. Therefore if we believe everyone's going to heaven except the people in our judgement shouldn't go, then firstly we're saying we're saying we're more high judge than God, secondly we're saying we don't believe Him (therefore we can't believe the bible 100% & believe the opposite of what the bible says - we either believe the bible as Truth or we don't, it can't be both).

Do we believe in heaven? To say that is to believe Someone's in charge of it, if we believe that, then He has to set the criteria for entry, & He's said His criteria is righteousness, if we believe that then we're all doomed - do you know anyone that's righteous in God's standards? Therefore we must need a way to get in, God said that is Jesus.

Anyway, I could just go on & on. But bottom line is, if you think the muslim is going to heaven, check out the Koran, weigh it up, study it. If you believe on this basis this is the truth, then the God of the bible can't be, because the beliefs conflict.
If you believe the Hindu's, check out what they believe, does it hold water, keep going, seek until you find the Truth. If we're unsure of what we believe, then we have no foundation, which is a pretty confusing place.

[myczarina]

I just wanted to say (if no one else has, I didn't read all of the replies) that it is alright with God if you doubt Him or doubt the Christian doctrine. He wants you to come to a deep understanding of your faith and Who His is by questioning and searching things out for yourself. I know this because He gave us the freewill to decide these things from the beginning of time. If He wanted or expected us to be a bunch of mindless followers He would never have given us freewill. But God wants us to love Him freely and willingly. And as my Sunday School teacher says, "God is a gentleman". As we question and doubt if we seek Him and ask questions He will always be faithful to answer with the truth. I have found it is asking questions that brings me closer to God as then He can answer my questions and He reveals to me His purpose and plans. Kind of like taking a step back to look at the whole picture that only God can see.
Faith is of course very important during times of doubt and trial but I believe asking God and confronting Him with our fears shows we have a very big faith in Him to actually answer us! After all, He wants to have a relationship with us. And just like any friend if there are things we don't understand He is willing and eager to explain them. He wants us to ask questions so we can come to know Him more.

God bless.

[windward]

Amen!

Whenever I am in a discussion with a non-believer or a sorta-kinda believer or a not-yet believer who has questions about God, at some point, if appropriate, I will say, "You know, if you really want to know God, just ask Him. Just say, God, if You really are there, please reveal yourself to me. Please let me know the truth about You." It's funny how the arguments stop right there and they want to change the subject.
I think it's because it makes people think about whether they want to really know God or just win a debate about religion. You are right, God is bigger than all of our questions - He's not afraid of them. God bless, Win.

[PADIVAN]

Windward, your post made me remember the verse, "Seek me and I shall be found." I have heard tons of stories of people who sought the Lord and miraclously He revealed Himself to them...even in the uttermost and remotest parts of the world....
Scripture teaches us that the truth of God is written on the conscienceness of our hearts. Romans 1 teaches us that God has revealed Himself to EVERYONE...yet many exchange the truth written on their conscience for a lie.
Yes, believing Jesus when He says, "I am the WAY, the TRUTH, the LIFE, no one comes to the Father but through me" is a very narrow minded concept...but you know, truth is very narrow. 2+2=4, not 5 or 6, that is very narrow. Truth is narrow. Why is it wrong to be narrow minded when it comes to rescuing souls by teaching the absolute truth?
People need the truth, they need it in love. As we hand them the truth with our right hand, may we also hand them God's grace with our left hand.
Jesus is full of grace and truth...may we also be as Jesus.
Padi

[rejoice]

this is a difficult subject to explain and yet it is quite simple

if there were no hell there would be no need for heaven or salvation- and it is difficult to realize that some people do choose hell by not choosing Jesus-

John 3 : 16 tells us the message in short and simple terms-
God does not send us to hell - we choose to go -
it is sad that many good good folks will be in hell and many bad bad folks will be in heaven-
none of us are worthy and the wages of sin is death and we all sin often in our goodness-
it breaks my heart to think that any one I know could go to hell- sigh- I am so glad that God knows our hearts and we do not know another's heart and God will and can and does come to knock and we do not know how many folks answered his knock while they were at death's doorstep--
huggles from rejoice

[Liberal]

Christian Universalism: a belief that God eventually saves everyone and that there is no eternal hell

I've been reading on the website about Christian Universalism which is a version of the Christian faith (1) which believes that no one is condemned to eternal hell, (2) God will save and reconcile everyone in the afterlife and (3) God loves everyone. Although there are traditional Christians who believe in the hell thing, I've noticed that many liberal Christians in the Anglican, Methodist and Roman Catholic Church in Britain reject the idea of eternal hell and, without realising it, believe in universalism probably because (1) they've had liberal Christian teaching where hell isn't mentioned and (2) they, like me, refuse to believe that a loving God condemns people to eternal punishment.

Universalists believe in the theology of the early Christians and say that the idea of punishment in eternal hell arose (1) as a result of error when the Bible was translated from Greek to other languages and (2) the Bible being misinterpreted. The wicked are punished for their sins but it's not eternal.

I'm now happy to believe that Jesus died to save us all and that I can now worship a God of love.

One man, who has his own website, was so distressed by people suffering eternally in hell that he had a nervous breakdown and needed psychiatric care for 12 years. As soon as he discovered Christian Universalism, he recovered, his fear and panic attacks stopped and his Christian faith was renewed.

[Bountiful]

I'm so sorry to hear this. One of your phrases is "refuse to believe" and that, unfortunately, is the basis of universalism. This is an effort to make God into what you want Him to be. This is taking what you like out of the Bible and rejecting the rest. I can see how this might seem more palatable, but it doesn't make it true.

This is religion - it's man made. This is NOT a personal relationship with God.

Have you ever read the Bible from cover to cover? Have you ever read the New Testament all the way through to the end of Revelation? I would suggest that you do so and before reading, pray for the Lord to open your heart to his teaching.

I pray that you will not settle for a tidy man-made "religion." Truly get to know our Sovereign Lord. Eternal suffering is only for those who refuse to know him and love Him as He is.

I prayerfully ask you to please continue to seek Him for yourself.

[pebbles]

Hello Liberal,

Good to see you on the boards, have not seen any posts from you in a while and wondered how work was going etc.

Liberal I agree with Bountiful and funny enough I was listening to twos radio programs tonight one called Defending the Truth with Bob Ducot(spelling??) They talked about the new trend of believing that everyone is saved from every religion even if they don't accept Jesus Christ. The second one is a Radio show by Dr. Tony Evans

I admit the side of me that hates conflict would love to think oh how nice and easy it would be everyone is saved . It goes to thinking why can't nice good people be saved. This is how many of us are lulled into thinking just being good is good enough. Which is what popular thinking says.

ON The Bob Ducot show said if Christians believe that Jesus died for our sins and is our salvation and muslims do not believe this, then we cannot have two opposites being true. We have to make a choice. Jesus said :no one comes to the father except through me".

Tony Evans explained well. He said as Christians we like to separate sin. e.g You don't have to commit 10 murders to sin. One will do. Then I think he gave the example we may not rob a bank, but we may be a liar or an alcoholic. The point is to God it is all sin, and we all fall short. The thing is human beings of ourselves can never be good enough to meet God's holy standards on our own. No matter how good our intensions or how hard we try we will all fall short. I love this next part ; God is a Holy God is not going to lower his standards to accomodate us. What God did was he allowed Jesus to take on the whole worlds sins on the cross. Jesus came to earth lived a blameless life and then died for our sins on the cross. Jesus paid the price. However, we have free will and we make a choice to accept Jesus as our Saviour.

Liberal I am working my way through Old Testament now and it is an eye opener in terms of just how far this current generation has strayed from God's word. We don't want to offend anyone or say anything not politically correct so we try to change Gods's word or the way it is interpreted. The Old Testament shows that yes God is a loving and merciful God, but he is a holy God. God is not going to pretend that unholy things are holy to make us feel better. God does punish people.

Feel good theories would have us believe God doesn't punish, and anything we do as long as we call it love is fine. Misconceptions e.g Same sex relationships are fine because the couple love each other. As long as we are doing good loving charitable works that is fine even if we don't acknowledge God.

I think you should also ask yourself one question. After reading the Universalism theory which is essentially rejecting certain parts of scripture how are you going to decide which parts of scripture will be relevant and which are not. I was a Buffet style Christian, pick and choose the parts of the bible I like and agree with and disregard the parts I don't like. But it didn't work for me. Essentially it meant I was trying to make God fit what I wanted life to be. We keep trying to make God fit human standards and his ways are higher than our ways.

The Christian walk is tough is it not all feel good happy. One last point about the Universalism. If they have to go to their own denominational book, beware. All any Christian needs is the bible as the source of authority. In the bible we can search for ourselves to find the truth. Do the universalists feel that just because they don't mention hell it doesn't exist. It may temporarily avoid the problem, but it doesn't stop the truth.

Take care
Pebbles

[Liberal]

Christians often disagree with each other about anything from what to believe/how they view doctrine/theology/the Bible to how the church is run. That can be different church denominations disagreeing or individuals in the same church disagreeing.

I think we should try to keep any disagreement civil if possible. I heard of one church which had a senior pastor and an assistant pastor. The two pastors were in dispute. Some of the congregation supported one pastor, the rest supported the other pastor. The assistant pastor left the church, started his own church and took half the congretation with him, causing a split in the church. How sad.

We should put issues of disagreement into God's hands. I honesty don't think any of us can fully understand God but we can do our best by reading the Bible and praying to him. Thank goodness we can read the Bible ourselves. In the old days many people couldn't read and write and had to rely on preaching from the clergyman in church on Sundays and weren't able to check it out for themselves in the Bible. If the pastor got it wrong, it was unfortunate for those who were illiterate. I feel sorry for those today who cannot read the Bible because (1) they don't have access to a Bible, (2) they can't read because they were unable to have an education and (3) those who can't read due to learning difficulties or any other handicap.

The hell thing has caused fear and distress for many people. I've felt guilt and fear with Christianity and have been greatly confused with Christian teaching. I'll ask God to help me with my faith and to help me feel more joy and peace as a Christian. I want God to speak to me, whether through reading the Bible or through prayer. I don't always want to hear the gospel from people (as they can sometimes get it wrong) but I do want to hear it straight from God.

[Bountiful]

I'm so glad you posted again, Liberal. Pebbles reply was excellent and I apologize if I sounded too abrupt or harsh. The Christian life isn't easy, by any means and some things are hard to accept. But I am so glad that you are open to further study and to reading the Bible. Pray for God's guidance before you read and then keep reading. Tell God about the things you find difficult (I do this quite often) and he is always willing to speak to our hearts and show us the way.

Glad to see you back.

God Bless

[Liberal]

I went to the funeral of my Uncle Tom today. Tom wasn't connected with any church and is an example of someone who wasn't 'saved' according to some Christians. His funeral was held in a crematorium chapel and the service was taken by an anglican priest who said "May he [Tom] rest in peace and be remembered with love". If a person doesn't want to be a Christian, we can do nothing except put it in the hands of God.

[pebbles]

Liberal,

Please accecpt my sympathies on the passing of your uncle. I can imagine when someone we love dearly dies and we are not sure of their convictions then it hurts more because we can't say well we know that this person had put things right with their maker. Therefore we as christians don't have that instant consolation prize that although this person is no longer with us we know this is not the final end.

However, at the same time Liberal no one truly knows if your Uncle Tom was saved or not except for God. He might not be saved could be the reality. We don't know if 2 days before or moments before he died he quietly accepted Jesus as his Saviour?

Liberal it is one of those unknowns and sadly it does not give you comfort in your grief. I can only offer prayers that God will comfort you during this time of loss and give you peace about the situation. Keeping you and your family in prayer.

Pebbles

[windward]

Dear Liberal,

I am so sorry to hear about you losing your uncle. I am also glad to see your posts on the board - welcome back and good to see you again. God bless you, my sister. Win.